17 Comments

• Bot says:

  July 26, 2009 at 2:49 am

  Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles.
• Kirsten says:

  July 26, 2009 at 2:51 pm

  On one point, Mark, you are incorrect: even the leaders of the LDS Church in Salt Lake City work without pay. Many of them have left their well-salaried positions when “called” to the ministry (Elder Russell M. Nelson, for example, was a heart surgeon who created new techniques still practiced today and who also walked away from his practice when asked to become a general authority). They are not paid for their labors on behalf of the church. They are appointed to board positions of the Church’s different holdings, e.g. Deseret Book, BYU, and receive compensation for the work they do in those positions but never for their work on behalf of the Church. http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/membership-in-christ-s-church/serving-in-the-church
• SBM says:

  July 26, 2009 at 3:08 pm

  Mr. Barna

  I used to find your articles quite enlightening in regards to religious construct, thoughts and your knowledge of world faiths. But today your stock dropped in my book after calling Mormons “one Christian denomination.” To equate Mormons as Christians (perhaps because “Christ” is in their nomenclature of the “Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints”) is like calling Hell’s Angels cherubs with leather outfits and tattoos. The differences are glaring: Christians are monotheistic, Mormons are polytheistic; Christians know there is only one God, Mormons try become like a god; Christians believe in salvation through faith, Mormons believe in salvation through faith AND works; Christians believe in one heaven, Mormons believe in multiple heavens.

  Please get your theological facts straight before calling members of the LDS “Christians.” Mormonism is a modern day, family friendly cult, plain and simple. Don’t believe me? Ask them what happens to their church membership when they stop tithing…

  B
• D says:

  July 26, 2009 at 5:02 pm

  In regards to pay for those dedicated to ministry one might ponder these passages:

  In the Old Testament, Numbers 18:21, God says, “I give to the Levites (the priests) all the tithes in Israel.” It was the Levites full time job to minister to God and the people.

  In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 5:17 states, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain and the worker deserves his wages’.”

  Pay for Pastors and Priests could have a corrupting influence no doubt but there is also the possibility of desiring position, power, and authority that could be just as corrupting (and possibly more) as the dependence of a pastor or a priest on a salary. This was not addressed in the recent newspaper article and your blog.

  It is not incidental that Joseph Smith was “the sole source” for the writing of the Book of Mormon. If I wanted complete control of thought over a group of people I would make sure that I was the only one with the full privilege of studying special tablets that I dug up and would be relieved that it was believed that they were taken to heaven so my interpretations couldn’t be questioned and the tablets carefully examined.

  It is also not a minor fact that Joseph Smith was the only prophetic voice but that he was also the General of the Militia (complete with fancy uniform, applets and all) and that he announced a run for Presidency of the United States. Could he have gotten a bit carried away (even corrupted) with the desire for position and power?

  When he feared losing control over his Mormon followers due to his “Spiritual Wifery” (adultery by another name?) , he conveniently receives a new teaching in regards to polygamy as not only a new revelation, but an essential feature of salvation.

  Corruption is truly an ugly thing.
• Carly says:

  July 26, 2009 at 5:21 pm

  You give some Christians a really bad image. You of all people should know that this country under God, indivisable provides for freedom of speech and you, my dear, are acting in contradiction to our Constitution. I found this article insightful and educational. The author’s report invoked passionate feelings without overt bias for one arguement over another. He pointed out something fattened and comfortable preachers, ministers and pastors are AFRAID OF: preaching the gospel without their creature comforts. It is okay to have what you need but the tithes and offerings are not for the shepard to become fattened while the sheep grow weak. You ever wonder why dem darn Mormons are so dang popular? They actually obey their conscience for fear of displeasing God. They have a long way to go to be worthy of God but isn’t that what a sinner saved by grace really is? BOOM!
• Carly says:

  July 26, 2009 at 5:55 pm

  My comment was lovingly meant for SBM
• Priscilla Potter says:

  July 26, 2009 at 6:22 pm

  Thank you for your article. My husband and I have served in many different callings. We have felt that we are trying to do (in the best way we can considering that we are human) what Jesus Christ would do if he were here. We care for each other as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I have taught children and adults in Sunday school and the children’s organization called primary. I have taken care of toddlers so that young mothers and fathers can go hear the lessons. We have been leaders and supporters. In fact I think we are both at all times. I am sure you have stirred things up in our area, but I appreciate your fairness. Good Luck.
• Nathan says:

  July 26, 2009 at 7:12 pm

  SMB, your definition of “Christian” depends very heavily on the creeds of the early Catholic church. That is fine, but please do not try to define Mormon beliefs in the same way. We base our faith on the Holy Bible and other revealed scripture, not on the creedal definitions of the Ecumenical Councils.

  A few counter points…

  SBM: “Christians are monotheistic, Mormons are polytheistic;”
  NATHAN: Christians are monotheistic, Mormons are monotheistic. Creedal Traditionalist Christians believe that monotheistic translates into one being; namely the Trinity. Mormons believe in three distinct personages who individually comprise the godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). This godhead is One God. Similarly, Jesus prayed to His Father for the disciples to be “one, as we are” (John 17:11). We know they are not all the same person. God commanded Adam and Eve to be “one” (Genesis 2:24), but we know they are not the same person. This is how we define monotheistic–One God united by purpose, desire, strength, and love; three individuals Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  SBM: “Christians know there is only one God, Mormons try become like a god.”
  NATHAN: Mormons believe that God is the literal Father of our spirits. We are His children. “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17). We believe that by being a child of God, we have divine potential. This absolutely does not mean that we exalt ourselves above our Father, or the Savior Jesus Christ. They will always be our God. “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18).

  SBM: “Christians believe in salvation through faith, Mormons believe in salvation through faith AND works”.
  NATHAN: Mormons believe “…that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8). We are wholly dependent on the Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that dependence, we believe in striving to obey every commandment that He gives, and repenting when we do not. That is where our works come in–devoted and loving obedience to the Lord who offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin.

  SBM: “Christians believe in one heaven, Mormons believe in multiple heavens.”
  NATHAN: Actually it was the Apostle Paul who compared the varying glories of heaven to degrees described by the light of the stars, the moon, and the sun. He said “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.” (1 Corinthians 15:41). The kicker is what Paul said next “So also is the resurrection of the dead.” (1 Corinthians 15:42). The resurrection of the dead will not be to one glory, but to several, depending on their station.

  SBM: “Ask them what happens to their church membership when they stop tithing…”
  NATHAN: Actually, SBM, an individual who does not pay tithing is in no jeopardy of losing their membership. They cannot enter the temple, but their membership in the church will remain for as long as they like.

  The bottom line is that we do not base our doctrine on the creeds that define Protestant and Catholic traditions. We base our doctrines on the scriptures and revealed words of the prophets of God.

  Just a word on the original topic of Mark Barna’s very thoughtful post. The Old Testament says “Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?” (Ezekiel, 34:2)

  I am grateful that the Lord can call on me to serve and receive His payment, and not the world’s payment. It makes me stronger, and is a benefit to my family. I would not have it any other way.

  Nathan
• Jack Mormon says:

  July 26, 2009 at 7:59 pm

  SBM – You obviously lack understanding of Mormonism. First, we do not practice polytheism, although we do acknowledge plurality of Gods (“as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become”). We pray strictly to the Father, as directed in Matthew 6:9.

  Second, faith justifies, but works sanctify. That’s why you’ll find in your Bible a verse that states “Faith without works is dead”.

  As for your other issues, I believe Nathan has addressed them quite well.

  Now in answer to Mark Barna’s question, I don’t believe volunteer pastors are inherently better, for there are many paid pastors who are humble followers of Jesus Christ and who give back spiritually far more than they receive materially in tithes and offerings. But the advantage we in the LDS community offer by not having a full-time paid clergy is that it permits us to rotate many more people through the bishop and stake president positions. Thus we end up with a larger cadre of trained leaders, which helps the LDS Church respond more effectively during crises.
• Lynette says:

  July 26, 2009 at 8:46 pm

  I appreciate your comments Mr. Barna. I know, based on reading these other comments, some have more heated thoughts on religion than others. I would just like to point out that in our society today, it is nice to see people willing to live their religion, what ever that belief may be. If more people were willing to serve their God, the Great Spirit, Budha, or what ever name He is called to you, wouldn’t our nation be even greater. So kuddos, to these gentlemen in your article that are willing to lay it all on the line, even a job, to serve their God. I am touched to know that they live among us.
• BMT says:

  July 27, 2009 at 12:39 pm

  It’s interesting to me how simple articles like this bring out the worst in people. It seems the advent of “unanimity” brings people to say uncivilized and hateful things when in person they would not. If you have beef with the LDS people, why don’t you see what they REALLY believe instead of believing false ideas taught as truth in many places today. You wouldn’t go to a Chevy dealer to buy a Mazda (or receive information on a Mazda) just as you wouldn’t go the Catholic church to receive information on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you really want to know what the LDS people believe, read unbiased articles like the one mentioned above (and thank you for writing it), you should talk to the guys in white shirts that walk around. They can answer questions and concerns you may have about it from the Bible. Good luck in your quest for true knowledge…
• Eric Shuster says:

  July 27, 2009 at 3:51 pm

  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the 4th largest Christian denomination in North America (2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches) and the fastest growing Christian religion in the world (according to numerous sources and news services). I do not suspect that mainstream Christianity will be able to deny the Christian label to the LDS Church for long, especially since its doctrines are more New Testament based than the vast majority of the 38,000 Christian denominations in the world today. There are many issues on the horizon that will call for the body of Christ to come together in unity. A house divided cannot stand, and denying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the Christian marker divides the House of Christ.

  Jesus knew our world would come to this – bickering over who are his true followers and who are not, dividing his body. Because of this he taught us how to tell with our naked eye who are his true followers: “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them (Matt. 7:17-20). The ultimate litmus test: those who profess Jesus to be their personal savior, who bring forth good fruit, are those to be numbered among his true followers – Christians – and are a part of the body of Christ. I love the simplicity of this. No theology tests, just belief backed up by actions (faith and works as the New Testament authors have taught us).

  Go to http://www.studychristianity.org to fully understand the Christian nature of the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• Kim Konvert says:

  July 27, 2009 at 4:40 pm

  We would all do well to study the origin of the man-made creeds that Nathan referred to above. It is unfair to judge if someone is “Christian” based on man-made creeds.
• Dodee says:

  July 27, 2009 at 6:54 pm

  I appreciate Mr. Barna taking the time to write a great article. I have always regarded people that believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel as Christians. Mormons do believe in Jesus Christ and try their best to live His gospel. Therefore, they are indeed Christians.
• Rebecca says:

  July 30, 2009 at 9:53 am

  I am from Columbus Ohio. I would just like to say how refreshing it is to hear about the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints in the media with positive uplifting words. How often we come to the media and leave feeling depressed and worried. It is nice to hear about people doing good for the pure love of God. It is indeed our duty here on earth to lift and love those around us. What a wonderful article. Even from Ohio we can feel the pure intent of this article!
• Notes From All Over For Week Ended August 2 | Times & Seasons, An Onymous Mormon Blog says:

  August 2, 2009 at 9:59 am

  [...] THE PULPIT: Work without pay has rewards, Mormon leaders say. By MARK BARNA, THE GAZETTE. Colorado Springs CO Gazette, July 26, 2009. See also: http://thepulpit.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/25/mormon-leaders-happy-to-work-for-no-pay/2193/ [...]
• Bob says:

  August 4, 2009 at 2:45 pm

  I appreciate you raising the issue on a non-paid clergy. I am LDS and believe most Pastors and Priests have sincere desires to serve their flock.

  Being raised in the LDS church I have an innate desire to be successful in my career for multiple reasons:

  1 – To provide for the needs of my family. This means food, shelter, clothing. etc. It also means providing an environment of love and encouragement. Having my wife not work outside of the home (her choice) is important to me so that she can be there or our kids.

  2 – To have time for my family. I can’t afford to work more than 50 hours per week at any job. Time with my family is important and my kids need their dad.

  3 – To have time to serve my church. In other words, serve those in my community. Each congregation is called a “ward” and is lead by a “bishop.” This bishop decides (through prayer and inspiration) what each person does to assist in the teaching, leading or supporting the activities of the church. Currently, my wife and I teach a class on Sundays to 5 year olds. I also run a sports program for teenagers and men, rotating basketball, volleyball and softball during the year. I have previously been asked to lead youth groups, give lessons to men. Each person has their own temporary calling that helps people learn, grow and develop. The ironic part is that usually it’s the teacher or leader that learns or grows the most. I think that’s why mormons make good leaders – they have had lots of opportunities to lead or be led in their experience in the church.

  There are many other reasons for wanting to be successful in my career, these are the top three. I hope it provides an insight to someone who wonders why mormons put in 1-20 hours per week serving the church, which is actually serving those in their community.

  Lastly, Joseph Smith taught that “a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has the power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.” Sometimes I must remind myself of the metaphor: The church is a hospital for the sick and afflicted, not a sanctuary for the healthy. Nobody is spiritually healthy on their own and ALL of us need the Savior to heal and become clean of our sins.